Curse

UnChosen · Dec 08, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

I think the right answer is : Did GW emptied after teh Ursan Nerf?

Yes. 3 district of DoA becomes 3 people. Dungeon players using Ursan literally vanished overnight leaving only the constant spamming for 600/smite run at doomlore. In fact the entire EoTN area literally felt more empty right after the nerf.

I didn't see ToA increase by 3 district or more, indicating that people didn't just all move to UWSC after the ursan nerf. And even if they did....being stuck in a single area whenever I'm not with a guild group is NOT fun.

coil · Dec 08, 2009, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Honestly, the bolded part there is the best idea I've ever heard for balancing PvE. I want this. Now.

because adding an element of random chance helps to establish equilibrium (balance)....really?

i like the idea as well, but it just illustrates how fundamentally flawed the "balance pve" argument inherently is.

Steps_Descending · Dec 08, 2009, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Yes. 3 district of DoA becomes 3 people. Dungeon players using Ursan literally vanished overnight leaving only the constant spamming for 600/smite run at doomlore. In fact the entire EoTN area literally felt more empty right after the nerf.

I didn't see ToA increase by 3 district or more, indicating that people didn't just all move to UWSC after the ursan nerf. And even if they did....being stuck in a single area whenever I'm not with a guild group is NOT fun.

That didn't mean they left actually. Just that they moved from DoA/dungeon. Some of them probably indeed left. SOme of them probably went to the next gimmick (600). Some of them probably started playing other team gimmicks or started playing "legit" for a while. And some of them probably were looking for the next gimmick (what was it btw, I really don't remember seeing anythign special between UB and SF. Was CoP changed at that time).

But unless we had confirmation numbers, if the population didn't spike down and stay down, that doesn't mean they left, that means they went back to casual status or took a pause untill the meta re-stabilized.

(EDIT : there was a leap in logic there. I fixed it but that doesn't mean it's easy to understand now)

And btw didn't SCs start with the SF buff.

Tenebrae · Dec 08, 2009, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Yes. 3 district of DoA becomes 3 people.

Sorry to repeat myself but what part of this "Leaving DoA =\= Leaving the game" didnt you get ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Dungeon players using Ursan literally vanished overnight leaving only the constant spamming for 600/smite run at doomlore. In fact the entire EoTN area literally felt more empty right after the nerf.

Woah "Dungeon players using Ursan vanished" ? lol no. They used another stuff , they didnt vanish from GW. The question is if ppl left GW , not X zone , Y dungeon or ToA or whatever. The answer is NO , ppl just changed builds and did something else.

Golgotha · Dec 08, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Sorry to repeat myself but what part of this "Leaving DoA =\= Leaving the game" didnt you get ?

Woah "Dungeon players using Ursan vanished" ? lol no. They used another stuff , they didnt vanish from GW. The question is if ppl left GW , not X zone , Y dungeon or ToA or whatever. The answer is NO , ppl just changed builds and did something else.

That's a lot of assumption on both sides of the argument. I don't think there's even a chance to have the slightest clue as to what really occurred. At this point it's like arguing what color the Loch Ness monster really is.

toocooltang · Dec 08, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Yes. 3 district of DoA becomes 3 people. Dungeon players using Ursan literally vanished overnight leaving only the constant spamming for 600/smite run at doomlore. In fact the entire EoTN area literally felt more empty right after the nerf.

You know the advantage of ursan and SF is the fact that you can ignore large parts of the game completely. There was nothing out there in PVE that really shut down ursan and kill the team besides their own stupidity. You could literally steam roll every area by simply loading one skill on your skill bar. Its the same with SF, specfically SF on A/Es. The earth magic line is insanely OP because you get great defense (stoneflesh), great offense (sliver), and the ablity to ignore 90%+ of the game.

As far as PVE being truely balanced it never will be. The simple reason is the MOBs are high level, with monster skills. By default the player is at a disadvantage but that makes PVE a challenge. The solution to making it a little bit easier was PVE skills which 95% of them are just fine. SY and TNTF do stack to be 85% dmg reduction but how are you going to be able prot agiants a 350dmg lighting hammer in city when they cast at 50% faster.

Bottom line, PVE is not and never will be balanced, BUT a big part of guildwars is sucessful planning and coordination of your team before you take on an area. With shadowform and ursan you really dont have to because both of these skills require very little to no defense on a team wide level. Ursan you only need 3 HB monks in DOA to roll their head over the keyboard. I have seen and SF tank the whole last room in foundry, all he needed was life bond and he was able to sliver down most of the room, that is broken.

athariel · Dec 08, 2009, 09:14 PM // 21:14

i think the pve problem is the hard counter system in GW (as someone said before, rock-paper-scissors). Melee-heavy group? drop a blind on them and they can't even harm you. Caster-heavy? put spellbreaker on and you won't be hurt at all. look at starcraft - lurkers are very effective against marines, but if you are pro you can defeat the lurker user with marines. In case of GW, having lurkers means your opponent's marines are completely useless.

I wonder how would GW work if spells were like these - Obsidian Flesh - 75% spell damage reduced OR 75% chance to dispel spells. Shadowform - 75% chance for attacks and spells to miss. That would take care of runners/farmers, while it wouldn't harm 'balanced' groups at all.

another problem are imbalanced spell combinations such as SY!+TntF!. I am not sure, but if a build is called "Imbagon" there is something wrong (similar case with godmode sin) with the game balance.

Kaleban · Dec 08, 2009, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Did anyone ever stop to think that the dominance of SF in high end areas was planned out by ANet as a reward to Sin players who put up with all the crap they got from 99% of the GW elitist playerbase claiming they were narutards?

Personally, SF is the reward for sticking with a class that has been marginalized since Factions came out. My Sin is 42 months old lol. Its only since EOTN came out, and more pronounced, the Ursan nerf, that Sins, specifically Permasins have been so in vogue and useful.

Its kind of nice to flip the bird to all the wammos, prot monks and Searing Flames eles that wouldn't take a Sin into DoA/Deep/Urgoz/FoW/UW etc. etc. if their lives depended on it, and now its as if these areas CAN'T be done without a Sin.

And that's because people will always gravitate to the builds that dole out the greatest reward for the minimal effort. The problem is not Shadowform, the problem is human nature itself. SF gets nerfed, then something else will take its place and the cycle will continue.

In my humble opinion, the ONLY reason for all the SF hate is because for the vast majority of GW players, Sins are NOT their main character and so were not able to take advantage of "easy mode" as so many people call it. Simple envy/jealousy rears its ugly head and creates these types of threads/QQ fests. I'm pretty sure if monks had a way to solo farm everywhere, there wouldn't be nearly this much hate directed towards them...

Oh. Wait. They have, and pretty much since GW was released. And how many times has the 55 build been nerfed? I believe its STILL around, and is effective in more areas than SF! Who knew?

So yeah, the problem isn't SF, its the people who can't stand not having their characters be the best at everything. And instead of placing the blame with themselves for being arrogant jerks who made fun of narutards, they blame SF as some sort of demonic skill that ruins the game.

Look in the mirror. What ruins the game is the human capacity for laziness and the ability to point the finger everywhere else but oneself.

Fay Vert · Dec 08, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

PvE will never be balanced, but it doesn't have to be so insanely broken as it is now. SF makes Ursan look good!

When they finally got round to fixing Ursan you would have thought that a lesson may have been learned, that overpowered skills are not good for the game. Yet here we are, still with god mode Broken Form screwing the game over big, unbelievable incompetance.

Golgotha · Dec 08, 2009, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Oh. Wait. They have, and pretty much since GW was released. And how many times has the 55 build been nerfed? I believe its STILL around, and is effective in more areas than SF! Who knew?

As someone that owns both type of characters, SF out-farms the 55monk and it's not even close.

Steps_Descending · Dec 08, 2009, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

That's a lot of assumption on both sides of the argument. I don't think there's even a chance to have the slightest clue as to what really occurred. At this point it's like arguing what color the Loch Ness monster really is.

Golgotha has a point. We can assume most people stayed one way or another,but unless we have numbers we can't completely be sure.
And I seriously think some people did actually left and never really come back beyond "retired" level of activity (logging to do a mission or 2 and logging out). Then again, if all it took them to leave was the nerf of the fastest gimmick, they were due to leave for a while. UB was just the last rope holding them back. We didn't lose much.

Tenebrae · Dec 08, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

That's a lot of assumption on both sides of the argument. I don't think there's even a chance to have the slightest clue as to what really occurred. At this point it's like arguing what color the Loch Ness monster really is.

Well the thing is that , Droks , Spamadan and Kaineng have less ppl than before but its not about UB nerf. Cheap talkers said "if bla bla gets nerfed , a lot of ppl will quit" and no , i dont have a proof like 2+2=4 but i can really tell that didnt happen for sure.
Maybe those cities are not enough for you , ok , fair enough but please ..... DoA ? and ToA ? ppl just stay there , make a group and leave. Spamadan , LA , Droks and Kaineng have lots ppl for like 4h ( i can asure you that ) and didnt "feel" the UB nerf .... but i agree with you , cheap words dont deserve nothing.

coil · Dec 08, 2009, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Yet here we are, still with god mode Broken Form screwing the game over big, unbelievable incompetance.

i'm content with the game at the moment & think they did a great job with the new content. not sure why youre in such an uproar.

Golgotha · Dec 08, 2009, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Well the thing is that , Droks , Spamadan and Kaineng have less ppl than before but its not about UB nerf. Cheap talkers said "if bla bla gets nerfed , a lot of ppl will quit" and no , i dont have a proof like 2+2=4 but i can really tell that didnt happen for sure.
Maybe those cities are not enough for you , ok , fair enough but please ..... DoA ? and ToA ? ppl just stay there , make a group and leave. Spamadan , LA , Droks and Kaineng have lots ppl for like 4h ( i can asure you that ) and didnt "feel" the UB nerf .... but i agree with you , cheap words dont deserve nothing.

One can also contest that a good portion of the remaining outposters are sellers and/or power traders rather than people that were playing any areas/missions to begin with.

UnChosen · Dec 08, 2009, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

One can also contest that a good portion of the remaining outposters are sellers and/or power traders rather than people that were playing any areas/missions to begin with.

Or people who just go to PvE outposts to chat and fool around for a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Sorry to repeat myself but what part of this "Leaving DoA =\= Leaving the game" didnt you get ?

Woah "Dungeon players using Ursan vanished" ? lol no. They used another stuff , they didnt vanish from GW. The question is if ppl left GW , not X zone , Y dungeon or ToA or whatever. The answer is NO , ppl just changed builds and did something else.

So what are they doing? ToA population didn't really increase, every non end game outpost are empty (and I've actually camped in some of them for a bit, and saw like two hero groups), no one wants to do dungeon...

In fact the only area I've seen with an increase in population after the ursan nerf is bergen hot spring, although the increase is the amount of monk bots (maybe they got more business cuz people can't do DoA anymore?). And maybe rata sum...

But once you get to that point, it doesn't really matter. If people don't play anything other than solo farm, then it is pretty much equal to people leaving. In fact, its WORSE than leaving because soloers still take up bandwidth. And then you have people complaining about lag...

Either way, its all anecdotal evidence. Maybe I was wrong, but that doesn't mean people saying "oh, no one will leave" is right.

Tenebrae · Dec 08, 2009, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

One can also contest that a good portion of the remaining outposters are sellers and/or power traders rather than people that were playing any areas/missions to begin with.

Yeah well but if you are going to count ppl ...... i dont think that counting on Riverside Province , DoA , ToA are better than Droks , LA , Kamadan and Kaineng. Ofc their are trying to trade but at least they spent more time ingame than anyone in lets say ..... Dzagonur bastion. Those are like "hey lets search group" , try 3 -4 districts ... ok , fill with heroes , go. Not much time to count

Kaleban · Dec 09, 2009, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

As someone that owns both type of characters, SF out-farms the 55monk and it's not even close.

Not to be a jerk, but you, among many others are completely missing the point.

First, the 55 has been around much longer, and in conjunction with the 600, is vastly superior in numbers and usage.

The Sin population explosion COULD be attributed to regular players who aren't in 1337 guilds or without a bunch of time making a character that could get them some level of wealth.

But ALL of this is irrelevant to the real problem. And that is that every player in game, from the guy that logs 1 hour a week to the most dedicated farmer are ALWAYS going to look for the quickest and easiest way.

That's not Shadowform's problem. IF it gets nerfed, something else will take its place. Heck, Obsidian tanks have been around forever, just like monk tank builds.

Which means multiple professions have "godmode" buttons. ITS NOT JUST SF. get that through your thick skulls.

As I said, the only reason I can really think of that there is so much SF hate is it allowed a "non-standard class" (i.e. not the holy trinity of war/monk/ele) to participate in the game, and causing those who didn't like the Sin class to QQ because they got booted from party selection for once.

Its akin to being picked last in a sandlot baseball game. The one time the nerdy, skinny guy gets picked first because he has a new trick, all the big dumb jocks who got used to preferential treatment whine and complain until an artificial ruling is created to put the status quo back.

Hypocrites, the lot of you. The funny thing is, all the peeps on Guru bitching about this skill and lauding a possible upcoming nerf don't even represent a slice of the GW playerbase. If ANet's devs listen to the hate on this site to guide skill balancing, then the game is already doomed.

Golgotha · Dec 09, 2009, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Not to be a jerk, but you, among many others are completely missing the point..

Um, I'm against the SF nerf -- depending on how they go about it, that is. I was just pointing out an error in your statement.

Fay Vert · Dec 09, 2009, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

i'm content with the game at the moment & think they did a great job with the new content. not sure why youre in such an uproar.

I hardly play the game any more. I just assert that the game is massively compromised by this bad skill. It's no skin off my nose of they keep it or nerf it. It's just sad that such a great game is so heavily neglected for so long.

Surely nobody can claim that SF isn't a problem?

Kaleban · Dec 09, 2009, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

I hardly play the game any more. I just assert that the game is massively compromised by this bad skill. It's no skin off my nose of they keep it or nerf it. It's just sad that such a great game is so heavily neglected for so long.

Surely nobody can claim that SF isn't a problem?

SF is not a problem.

I can play an assassin without taking Shadowform. I can also use Shadowform as another class, but without the support skills that allow it to perma. I can also Permasin.

However, to my knowledge, none of these uses have "broken" the game. In fact I was able to log in today with my Ritualist and play normally, and I saw many non-SF sins, along with all the other classes represented.

If one skill could make a game bad, then the game is flawed at its core. GW works, so SF is not flawed.

The nerf bat is used throughout gaming, and runs in cycles, SF is in ascendancy now, something better will replace it. This is nothing new. IF ANet nerfs it, even into oblivion, then some other build will take its place.

I assert that all the hate is due to this build being easy to run by "non-standard" classes (the war/monk/ele) and that its extremely hypocritical and childish to claim a game as far reaching as this is broken because of one skill in PvE.